Alaskan Artist - Elise Tomlinson
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Home » Archives » May 2004 » Don't put all your (slides or CDs?) in one basket!

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05/24/2004: "Don't put all your (slides or CDs?) in one basket!"

A fellow artist co-worker told me about a fire at his apartment where he had one of those Sophie’s Choice moments; he had to decide between rescuing his cat or saving his portfolios which represented his entire life’s worth of work.

He chose his cat of course, although he had other artist friends tell him later that they couldn’t believe he chose an animal over his art. (they sound like the animals wouldn’t you agree?) Although, that reminds me of how words have such different meanings in different cultures. In our western culture, calling someone “an animal” means you think they are barbaric. In Tlingit culture, (one of many Alaskan Native tribes and the one indigenous to the Juneau/Douglas area) being considered an animal is the highest form of flattery. They see animals differently than most westerners, not as something to have dominion over (as in the Bible) but as wise and sacred members of the community. In many of their folk tales, boys or girls turn into animals in the end and it is a good and happy thing for them.

Anyway, I digress; the fire story reminded me of my own little tragedy. Many years ago my father was visiting me for my college graduation, which coincided with me moving to a new place. I had all of my canvases rolled up together and stored in a huge canvas bag (the kind that musicians use for transporting music stands). I had all of my original prints (I was a printmaking major) stored in a big box between layers of tissue paper. That bag and box represented, 6 years worth of work (ok, it took me more than 4 years to graduate but I also worked the whole time so cut me a little slack).

My dad was going to take them back to the house I grew up in, in O’Neill Nebraska, for safe keeping. Somehow my dad managed to lose both of them at the airport. I think he just forgot about them, that was never really made clear to me and it wasn’t until years later that I realized he didn’t have them in storage at his place.

Now, all through school my instructors really emphasized the importance of photographing your work but like so many of the young and reckless, I always assumed there would be plenty of time to do that later on. What few slides I had taken were in the box with the original prints. (my co-worker had stored his slides in the same place as his originals so when the fire destroyed the portfolios, it also took his slides).

So, it is a weird feeling to have many years worth of your own work wiped clean. I may have even written about this before, as it was a pretty traumatic event in my life.

My advice is to take lots of photos, digital as well as slides (most galleries still request slides although CDs are becoming more accepted, see this article from theartweblog called Sildes vs. Digital Images by Caryn Coleman) and keep the slides and CDs in a couple different locations just in case. I can’t remember much of what I did in school, and what I do remember I’m sure looks 10 times worse than how I remember it. I would love to be able to look back and see all the stuff I did in school, but it’s too late for that now.

Also, I have work currently that I only took digital photos of work that I'm no longer in posession of. I naively thought at the time that it would be OK because I had posted images on my website so I believed that I at least had a digital record of the work. What I later realized is that all the images, even the large ones, were optimized for the web, meaning 72 ppi. That’s a very low resolution image, which is great for displaying work on a website, but if you ever want to include one of those images in a promotional brochure or make gift cards from it etc…it’s too low resolution to print out.
A website I’ve mentioned before called Zazzel will let you set up a little marketplace for yourself where you can use your images to make cards, posters, and other products. They only will print at 200ppi (pixels per square inch).

“Cards: 200ppi
The images that you upload will be converted to 200ppi (pixels per inch) if not already at this resolution. This means every 200 pixels in your image will become 1 inch when printed. For example, if you submit a 800 pixel by 1000 pixel image for a card product, it will be printed at 4" by 5". This is because: 800 pixels divided by 200 pixels/inch = 4 inches, 1000 pixels divided by 200 pixels/inch = 5 inches.”

So very few of the images that I have in digital format can be used for making cards or printing out for other various purposes. It is recommended to optimize your digital photos for web display but remember to KEEP a copy of the larger sized original digital image, whether it is one you had scanned or one that you took photos of. When you set up your digital camera, make sure your settings are set to the largest and highest res setting possible.

And while we’re on the topic of no longer having works of art in your possession, it’s always a good idea to have people who purchase your work fill out a contract with you, including current contact information so you always know who has each of your works of art. That way if you need to have the piece back for a special exhibit or you need to reshoot your slides, etc. you’ll know who has the item, you’ll have a contract saying that you reserve the right to reclaim the work for said purposes, and you’ll know how to contact the person.

Replies: 24 Comments

on Monday, May 24th,">Karen Adamshack said

I'm new to your site
Wanted to thank you for the valuable information that not everyones willing to take the time to share.

on Monday, May 24th,">Elise said

Hi Karen,
I'm glad that you found some useful information here. I write primarily about my own process so that means I may get it wrong from time to time but I rely on other artists who read this to set me straight, and to add information from their own experiences. Are you a painter? Do you have any work online that I could check out? Anyway...

Apu from the Simpsons Thank you, come again!

on Tuesday, May 25th, Dio said

I live in dread of a fire ripping through my stuff. In a way it would be liberating, but in another, the loss of all that had work puts my teeth on edge.

I made sure I kept a record of the stuff I was doing in college, but typically they were kept as the same location of the work!

I now make sure I keep a set of DVD back-ups in work as well as at home, so if the house goes, my lifes work is still in another location. Touch wood it never happens. :D

on Tuesday, May 25th,">Elise said

A fire is something I worry about too, only less so because of the art and more so because I have two cats whom I adore and they would have no way out in the case of a fire. (they are both indoor cats; there are eagles everywhere and just last week a woman here saw one flying off with someone's cat!)

I worry about how I'd get to both of them in the case of a fire when I'm at home, and even worse, dread driving down the street to my house after work and seeing charred rubble.

I even have drawn up an elaborate plan for a kitty fire escape. The opening would be under the bed (their favorite hiding place) and the door would be triggered open by the fire alarm.

Then, there is a dark little passageway away from the house and at the end of it is a dark mesh box they can hang out in until the fire's over.

I have to come up with some way to get them to go down the passageway, like maybe a tuna scented spray is activated down there or something.

Anyway, I haven't and probably won't build it, but it's something I think about probably more than is healthy.

on Tuesday, May 25th, atheist_uberboy said

Hello again,

This is in response to the camera post you made. I decided to respond to your blog rather than my own to make sure you would see it.

Now, purchasing a DV camera. Unfortunately I have not shot with the panasonic 100A yet. My university only has one of the original 100's and I haven't been allowed to touch it yet. So I cannot give you direct experience with that camera. However I will give you what advice I can.

At this point I've forgotten what I told you in my original post so I may repeat myself here. First you mentioned 24p in your question, why do you need 24p? What are you planning to do with this camera? Do you like the asthetic of 24 fps? Will you try to get into any commercial videography work or is this intended to be a tool for personal expression?

Regarding the 24p technology in the camera, your friend is correct in telling you that effective pulldown solutions are available for 60i video to 24p. However, the really good packages are not free. What editing software do you use? Do you own a Windows computer or a Mac? Will you even be doing your own editing or do you have a partner who will be doing it? Additionally, 24p is not the only component of the nebulous "film-look". There are other factors, such as Depth of Field and Gamma. However, panasonic is the only solution in this price range to have configurable gama curves on camera. Do these matter? Well, yes. While advanced color correction tools are now offered in most midlevel software editing packages DV has very limited color information making their use for anything other than subtle adjustments ineffective.

Now for my personal experience (sorry that this post has become so chaotic) recently I shot quite a bit of footage for my university's Relay For Life overnight event with a Sony VX2100 (which has the same image recording mechanism as the PD170). I have to say that I was very impressed with it. To the point where I would recommend the PD170 over the XL1, especially since the PD170 comes with a wide angle adapter. And I have love for the XL1. With one major caveat, you MUST buy and external battery charger. Otherwise your camera has to be used to charge the battery, interrupting your shoot. I have no idea why Sony would make a design decision this moronic but they did. Additionally it doesn't come with a progressive 24p mode, nor useful gamma curves.

Why do I say this? Because the VX2100 is about $1000 dollars less than the panasonic 100A. However here again there is a serious factor to concider. The VX2100 does not have XLR connectors, or the wide angle adapter included with the PD170. These are VERY useful to have, but are not -necessary-. The canon XL1 requires the purchase of a adapter to use XLR connections.

Why am I saying all this? Because I don't know precisely what you want to accomplish. If money is tight, and you need a camera soon, I would probably go with the VX2100 and just deal with its short comings. If you have a bit of extra cash, I would suggest a hard look at the PD170 versus the 100A. I have reservations about recommending a camera I have never personally used, but I have to say that from what I've read, the 100A looks like it is a superior camera. Even American Cinematographer magazine gave the camera a positive review.

I suppose if I were to purchase a miniDV camcorder right now in the $3k-$4k range it would be the 100A. I wish that I could tell you that the new HDV technology was right around the corner, but it looks to be a year away.

Now, other things to keep in mind. You might want a 16:9 anamorphic lense adapter for whatever camera you wind up purchasing. I love wide screen and would recommend it, since none of the cameras in this price range (except the unusual JVC HD10U) have true 16:9 image capture. Additionally if you go with the 100A you could use a Wide angle lense adapter. I've only been able to use the regular lenses on all the DV cameras I've touched and by now I long for a short lense. Furthermore, make sure you set aside case for a microphone or two unless you have access to them through an audio geek friend or some other source. If your primary interest is Narrative filmmaking, the first mic you should pick up is a decent shotgun. If it's documentary with a focus on interviews, a good Lavalier is a godsend though you'll probably need a shotgun and handheld mic as well. A mic is probably the first purchase you should make after the camera itself. Also if you don't already have a tripod pick one up. I got a used video tripod from a garage sale, and I wouldn't recommend blowing the bank on an expensive one until you figure out your shooting style. Though having a quick release plate is helpful. Also you probably want at least two batteries to start with and maybe a car charger depending on what you plan on doing. So that one battery can charge while you shoot with the other one. Since the camera should already come with one small battery picking up a large one should be fine. After that comes the lusting for lights. Initially look around harware stores for 500+ Watt work lights. These can work wonders for no budget filmmaking. There's a wonderful website which has suggestions for a cheap light kit here:

in fact, there are a number of useful articles on

Also I would recommend building whatever accessories you can. I have a homemade microphone fishpole, and I plan on building a home made steadycam next, followed by a dolly and mini crane.

I know there's more to say but I don't know what at the moment. Go ahead and email me with any other questions you may have. I'll do my best to answer them.

on Tuesday, May 25th, atheist_uberboy said

man, I wrote a freaking book there.

on Tuesday, May 25th,">John said

Thankfully I have no pets to worry about, my mom's dog died in september. And I'm not a pet person, and hope to never have kids (I have paintings, why do I need kids?) when I live on my own, so the only things to worry about are the computer and the work, my simple plan, is to rip open the window, throw the computer out it (even if the outer shell gets wet, I can still recover the hard drive) and start throwing my work out the window as well, only leaping to safety after I get all my important stuff out. Currently most of my work is stored in the basement, which isn't ideal, however, even if the house burns down, the work is down there, I'd be digging around the rubble the day after a fire to rescue my work.

on Tuesday, May 25th,">Elise said

I know you were being serious about chucking stuff out the window but it still made me smile.

Maybe we need to have art rescue fire drills where we practice how we'll get our work out of the house? For example, all my work is on the second story, so I could put all my previous work in a couple mesh baskets with a heavy duty line attached, and in case of a fire I could just lower the baskets to the ground level (after rescuing my two cats of course).

Truth be told though, fire moves fast, REALLY fast. My dad used to be a fireman and he'd have us watch these fire saftey videos where they burn down a house in real time to show you how fast it goes up in flames and it's very very fast. Barely enough time to get yourself out, let alone posessions.

I think the only thing to do is (if you own your own place) have sprinklers installed.

The fire video showed how the fire would spread with sprinklers and it didn't get far at all. At least my oil paintings wouldn't get damaged but if you were a watercolorist....

I wonder how much sprinklers cost?

on Tuesday, May 25th,">Elise said

Oh, and as far as being a "pet person" I never used to be one either. I hated cats growing up and was sure I was alergic to them.

Then about 4 years ago a friend called me up one night all out of breath asking if she could come over...I thought she and her boyfriend were fighting again so I said sure. She and her boyfriend walked in with a meowing box with a ribbon on top.

I told them NO WAY and to get it the hell out of my apartment. Julie opened the box and out jumped this skinny little flea bitten kitten that she'd rescued from a bad home. They had kept one of the kittens and were looking for homes for the rest.

They asked if I'd just keep her for a few days while they try to find a new home for her and I said ok.

I took her to the vet the next day to get rid of the fleas and the vet told me she was blind in one eye and it could be feline lukemia and it would cost 50 bucks for the test, would I like to have her tested.

I was so shocked by my response because I started crying on the spot. I was so upset that she might die...after only having had her one day! I was hooked after that and a couple years ago I got a second pound kitty so she'd have a playmate.

They get along great, sleep all curled up together, and I haven't had any problems with alergies. I just try to vaccum fairly often.

Anyway, it's fun to come home and have to warm furry little guys waiting for me. No one in my family can believe that I have two cats as I used to be so anti-cat, but I guess you never can tell when or where love will strike.

on Tuesday, May 25th, John said

I noticed a couple months ago in the Gallery at my school that there were fire sprinklers installed in the ceiling. I thought it kinda funny, sure, fire damage to an exhibit would pretty much suck, but wouldn't water damage suck too? This sprinklers will shoot water for an extended length of time, soaking everything in the place, you might save all the work from the fire, but imagine the warping of stretchers or panels that might result from the water.
It's really funny to consider that the whole campus has these sprinklers, yet the campus, originally built in the 60's still has asbestos in some buildings, and all the rooms are made with concrete floors and ceilings and have heavy metal doors (fire doors on the studio classrooms) and fire doors between areas. If it's hot enough to burn concrete, metal, or asbestos, the water sprinkler isn't going to be much help.

on Tuesday, May 25th, John said

Fortunately for me I AM allergic to cats. And most dogs, our former dog was of a variety that didn't shed. However she was always my mom's dog. I can barely take care of myself, taking care of another living thing is a bit beyond my notice. I forget to eat sometimes for a day or two, that's not something to submit an animal or human to. And I wear a lot of black, and cat hair just doesn't look good on black clothing.

on Tuesday, May 25th,">Elise said

God, your school sounds like a bunker...I guess it was built during the cold war, perhaps it was intended to survive a nuclear holocaust?

And yes, water damage would suck for panel pieces but the nice thing about stretcher bars is that you can always take the canvas off and restretch it if you need to.

Also, sprinklers aren't triggered from smoke, but from heat, so you don't have false alarms happening. And I think that most sprinklers are only activated at the site of the fire/heat.

So hopefully the sprinklers in your gallery would only go off if you had a fire in the gallery (beware performance art gone awry) at which point I think fire trumps water in terms of destructive power.

on Tuesday, May 25th,">John said

If there was a basement in any of the buildings, I would say that it may have been designed as a nuclear shelter, but there isn't. The very thought of having to re-stretch a canvas gives me the chills. Yet another process lacking from my education. I suppose it's probably not difficult, but it just seems like it would be. My mom just bought me two pre-stretched canvasses (the good ones with the hidden staples and corner braces) for 25 cents each, the only problem, thay both have giant holes in the canvas, and now I have to figure out exactly how to take the canvas off the stretchers so I can a)reues the remaining canvas on smaller stretchers and b)reuses the stretchers with new canvas (tho a friend suggested I find a way to keep the hole from continuing to tear and just paint on it, incorporating the hole into the composition). Wait, it's a weekday, and you're a professional, are you off from work? If so, why aren't you painting?

on Tuesday, May 25th,">Elise said

Actually, it's about 10:30 and I'm just getting ready to head out the door. And yes, I suppose I *could* be painting right now, only I did this new drawing last night that I'm chomping at the bit to paint, and I don't have the right size canvas for it. The art store is out in the valley near the university so I'll pick it up at lunch and get cracking on it tonight.

OK, doth the lady protest too much?

But seriously, I can't start painting in the morning on a work day because I'm unable to make myself stop. I'd never make it into work at all.

As for restreching a canvas, it's a piece of cake. A piece of advice though,when purchasing prestreched canvases (that cost more than .25 cents) buy the kind that has "salvage" in the back and that is gallery wrapped, meaning no staples in the side. These are MUCH easier to restrech on the same size strecher frame.

For the ones you have, if the canvas has already been primed it's a bit tougher to get a nice tight fit, but as you mentioned to me, when you're done stray some hot water on the back to tighten it up again.

ok, really, I'm off to work now.

on Tuesday, May 25th,">John said

These are the kind with the staples on the back, it's just I can't see any of the staples, they're hidden somewhere, and thus the problem I'm having with figuring out how to take the canvas off. I wouldn't normally buy a prestretched canvas as I refuse to pay someone else to do something I'm perfectly capable of doing. Sorry, thought you went to work early AM is all. I should be painting myself, I went to school at 9am today with the work I had at my house that I had done for my independent study to meet with my advisor. And I was lamenting that I had gotten basically nothing done in the last 2-3 weeks, despite the fact that I finished 18 paintings in 15 weeks and I have three more I'm currently working on, and all the other work that goes into a full-time student's semester. My mentor wasn't upset by my lack of work in the last couple weeks. She wanted four large-ish paintings for the semester. 7 of the 18 were large-ish. I don't know if I can top that, but I should go try.

on Tuesday, May 25th,">Elise said

OK, I'm at work now so I can only do a quickie post before I get down to work, just wanted to give you a tip for getting the staples out, put a butter knife under the edge of the canvas on the back and run it along until you bump into a staple, than use the butter knife to pry the staple up.

As for paying for a pre-streched canvas costing more than one stretched myself, I used to build canvases from scratch using one x twos and I did a cost benefits analysis and figured out that if I get the prestreched ones in bulk when they're on sale (from Dick Blick) they cost LESS than the ones I did myself. Not to mention the time factor, I consider my time very valuable and I want to be painting, not mucking about with the canvases.

See this post about which type of canvas I use...Masterpiece Vincent Masterwrap

on Tuesday, May 25th, John said

By making my own, I don't mean I start by making my own stretcher strips, I buy the premade stretchers, if I wanted to do an 18x24 canvas, it'd cost 6 bucks for the strips, and $3 for some 10 oz canvas (always buy canvas in drop cloth form) so 9 bucks, of course they'd be the thin canvasses, not the thick ones which would cost more. I priced out making my own stretcher strips, and found that unless I was making a painting at least 3 feet on a side it would be cheaper to buy the stretchers they sell in the art supply shops. Buying in bulk might be nice, but I have no idea how big I want to make something, until I actually start to make something, if I have 20 supports all the same size, then that's all I'll work on, and that'd be boring, I like the variety of making small and large pieces, sometimes at the same time. And the internet is a great place for the interchange of ideas, but not a great place to buy and sell things, first there's the inability to actually touch the thing you're buying, second you're taking business aaway from local stores or chains, and third I have no credit card (nor do I want one), I have no debit card (nor do I want one), and I have no checking account. I have a savings account, and I prefer to conduct all transactions in cash. So internet shopping is a bit of an impossibility for me.
Oh and I noticed on the post you linked you mentioned shipping, have you considered having stuff shipped to a friend or relative in the lower 48 and having them re-ship it to you, it might save money to do it that way.

on Tuesday, May 25th,">Elise said

Well, I'm on my lunch break so I thought I'd respond to the whole, which costs less, debate.

First off, I'm a FIRM believer in supporting the little guy but as I've said before, I don't have road access to any other towns, and there is only one, very small art store in all of Juneau/Douglas and it has a high mark-up and doesn't carry the brand of canvas that I like.

I also like painting on a variety of sizes, often at the same time, I have 15 paintings going at present and they range in sizes from 9x12 to 24x36. I buy a bunch of different sizes in advance, that way I have a nice selection on hand to choose from (except for today when I need an odd size that I ran out of).

Secondly, you forgot to factor in gesso (or whatever you use to prime your canvas) unless the price you quoted for canvas was for pre-primed canvas.

Anyway, an 18x24 pre-stretched canvas by Vincent Masterpiece Masterwrap would only cost you 12 dollars.
Plus, it is nice 12oz cotton duct, plus the corners are hand tailored and done much more nicely than I can do myself. Plus they're really nice and tight...and I don't have to waste my painting time stretching canvas.

As far as not having any credit card etc., I know why that is a tempting way to live, and smart to a certain extent, but in the states if you ever want to buy a house you have to show you can use credit responsibly, and that means owning credit cards and taking out and paying back loans. But that's beside the point.

Also, with the shipping, Dick Blick has free shipping for order over 200 bucks *except* to Alaska...for us there is just a discount. But it's a really good discount so I think having them ship to someone in the lower 48 and then to me, would not save me much money, in fact, it might end up running more.

I do that on occasion when someone on eBay charges 25 dollars to ship something to Alaska that should only cost 5 bucks. Man, how can you get by in life with no online shopping?

Where I live there aren't many stores and no way of getting to more without flying to another town several hours away. So, for now I think I've found a system that works really well for me. If I lived on the East Coast, I would probably do things differently.

on Tuesday, May 25th, John said

if I factor in gesso, staples and wood might come to 12 bucks even. I used 18x24 only as an example. I had a credit card once, cut it up 4 years ago, I'm still paying for it. In your case online shopping makes a lot of sense. I figured if the place you lived in was large enough for a university, that it was large enough to have more shopping options. The metropolitan area I live in has 1 commnunity, 1 state, and at least 5 private universities, if we expand the are a bit, then there's even more. We have 24 hour grocery stores (can't live without em) and 24 hour gas stations and wal marts (can't stand wal mart, just mentioning). And 3 different shops that specialize in art supplies, 1 is truly local, been around 50 years, I don't shop there, they mark everything way up and the customer service is non-existant, the other two are parts of small chains (Hyatt's and "The Art Store") I shop at both since prices vary between the two. Plus we have lumber yards and at least 3 different chains of 'box' home improvement stores (home depot, etc). And at least one store that specializes in paint (as in house paint, but that's where I get my canvas) per town. And then there are all the crafts stores where I don't usually shop since the markup is usually too high. Oh and then there are the university bookstores and the 'off campus university bookstore alternatives' which sell art supplies. So it's prolly not fair to compare my situation to yours. :) Oh yeah, and there's a lot of artists, art students, public, private, and alternative exhibition spaces, studio spaces, The George Eastman House, Visual Studies Workshop...
I get by with no online shopping via a carefully cultivated plan of never having any money. It's not that carefully planned, I'm jsut broke most of the time between financial aid refund checks.

on Tuesday, May 25th, John said

I suppose the other thing here is that you're a post grad, and I'm a student. I go to school during the year, and fill my summers/winters with a low paying job to pay the bills (usually something I hate, but next week I start workign in the gallery at school). I have free time in droves. And I like working with my hands. And since I paint so fast it's not usually a hardship to have to spend time making new supports. Like I said before I never know how big I'm gonna make something until I decide to make something. I like having stretcher strips, canvas, and 1x2s on hand so if I decide to make something, say 6" x 42" all I have to do is buy the wood panel, or if I want a 2' x 3' canvas I grab stretchers and canvas off the pile and do it. Now if only I could find a local artist who'd pay me to build canvasses and panels, that'd be a good job.

on Tuesday, May 25th, John said

Wait. You have 15 things you're working on at the same time? That's awesome!

on Tuesday, May 25th,">Elise said

I'm envious of all the stores you have available where you live! And yes, we are in different stages in life so it's like comparing onions and sunflowers.

And as for having 15 paintings going at the same time, it's because I have a show coming up July 2 and all the paintings I'm currently working on are for that show.

I have my studio set up in the upstairs of my house, it's all one big area including the livingroom, diningroom, and kitchen, with no divider walls or anything. So, I just hang everything up on every bit of available wall space, so that I have to see them all, everyday, and if something strikes me suddenly, like "Oh my god, it looks like the tree is coming our of her head"...I can just pull it down from the wall and fix it.

Of course I was bitching last week about not wanting to keep obsessing over all of them and just wanted to finish some up and stick them in a back room so I don't have to see them constantly. BUT I usually work in a series, so I want to see how all the work is going to look together. I put them on the walls how I think I'll display them in the gallery.

I also have two easles, one that I made myself and a second, nicer one that I finally purchased. It helps to have two, because I sometimes work on two canvases simultaneously.
I'm a bit of a multi-tasker by nature.

back to work...

on Tuesday, May 25th,">Stacy said

Elise, I agree with your co-worker, I am a cat and dog lover and would choose my animals over my artwork. I do have most of my stuff scanned on computers and on my email, so I wouldn't lose everything, just the originals.

Boy, you and John sure sound prolific compared to me! I'm not working right now, and I still feel like I haven't gotten a thing done. And John is very lucky to be starting work at a gallery (for what university?). I applied for a part-time job, but would love to work at a job that is in the field I'm working in.

on Wednesday, May 26th,">John said

Stacy, the University I attend and will be working at, is Monroe Community College, in Rochester, NY. Haven't heard of it? Not surprised. It's not a "big" school, but I think I've gotten a top-notch education there.